Note: I published this interview with Jeff Kurkjian as part of The Jag Show. But I wanted to share it here, because Jeff drops such an incredible amount of knowledge!
Most podcasts chase downloads. Jeff Kurkjian built something better - a show people actually return to because it feels personal, consistent, and worth their time. If you're trying to grow a podcast, monetize one, or turn short-form clips into real audience loyalty, this conversation pulls back the curtain.
Jag sits down with Jeff Kurkjian, co-host of Is This a Great Game or What with his father, Hall of Fame baseball writer Tim Kurkjian, to unpack how the show evolved from a weekly baseball conversation into a three-episode-a-week brand with a clear identity and a loyal niche. Jeff reveals why the biggest growth driver was not Apple Podcasts or Spotify - it was repeatable, scroll-stopping video, ruthless consistency, and understanding that discovery starts with attention, not audio.You'll discover:
Jeff also shares the tools and workflow he uses to produce the show, including Riverside, Ecamm, Adobe Premiere, Adobe Audition, and a Stream Deck, plus his philosophy on what makes podcast marketing actually work: say something real, make it personal, and give listeners a reason to care beyond the topic itself.This episode is essential listening if you're a podcaster, creator, broadcaster, or brand trying to build something that lasts. The message is simple: don’t build for clicks - build for the people who come back.
(00:00) Intro
(03:29) - The origin story of Is This a Great Game or What?
(07:14) - Why the format changed from weekly to three times a week
(10:16) - Building an audience before expecting revenue
(11:00) - Why podcast discovery starts on social media, not apps
(13:54) - What download numbers do and do not tell you
(15:59) - Why the show works as a father son podcast, not just a baseball podcast
(23:20) - Why personal perspective makes expert content more compelling
(24:06) - “We’re only expert on one thing, ourselves”
(25:54) - Joining the Foul Territory Network
(27:51) - How network support helps with production and promotion
(30:35) - Why sponsorships and brand partnerships take time
(33:21) - Advice for podcasters without a team
(36:08) - Why Riverside, Ecamm, and other tools matter
(39:53) - Editing workflow in Premiere, Audition, and podcast hosting
(41:43) - Why podcasting should still be fun
JEFF TRANSCRIPT
JAG:
I am so happy to welcome today's guest. He is not only an incredibly successful podcaster, a morning show radio legend, and a dear friend for what, probably a a decade and a half at this point. Jeff Kurkjian of Is This Great Jeff Kurkjian of the Is This a Great Game or What podcast. Welcome to the show.
Jeff:
John, thank you. Thank you so much. I know I tried to formalize it. How about Jag? We'll go with that. But we just rebranded from the Jag Show to Jag.
JAG:
Who the hell's John?
JAG:
All right, either way.
Jeff:
You’re now JAG Podcast Productions. So, I mean, I love the rebrand. I'm so excited seeing and hearing about all the people you're helping, all of the work you've done in the podcast space. I'm telling you, Jag, you have been such a resource for me in my early years as a podcaster, launching what we created in is this a great game or what? You have no idea. I am eternally grateful for the time you spent on the phone and over text with me helping me navigate this space. You've been a big help.
JAG:
I appreciate you saying that. Your check is in the mail. It is not why I had you on the podcast today, but that is on brand for you and your dad doing this podcast because I know you as the nicest guy in the planet. And then I'm hearing the podcast is this a great game or what with you and your dad, Hall of Famer Tim Kirkshin. And every time your dad mentions a baseball player or anybody in baseball, he is my favorite person of all time. He is the nicest person of all time. Like you guys just love everybody. And this is why I love it listening to the podcast.
Jeff:
Ha ha ha.
Jeff:
You know, we had a live event, Jag, just this past Saturday, and somebody had texted us and it was the wife of somebody who really wanted to go to the live show. And she sent me a message on Instagram and she said, Hey, I just want to say, like seeing the love of you and your dad, the love you guys have for each other up on stage, was the coolest thing ever, but
JAG:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff:
The number one thing I took away from the both of you in talking to the both of you was how kind you both are. And let me explain. This is not me trying to say, look at me, I'm so kind. This is what I grew up with. I grew up with a dad who took time for every single baseball fan in the stadium. When we would grow up, when I was growing up going to games with him, it was a pain to go get a soft serve ice cream with him after the sixth inning. Because everybody would want to stop and talk to him. But he never
JAG:
I agree with that by the way.
Jeff:
Never turned away a fan, never said no. He's just as engaged and wanting to hear what they have to say than them wanting to hear what he had to say. So I mean, I grew up, I have the greatest dad in the world who taught me a lot, but number one is being kind to others and giving people the time they deserve. And Jag, listen, you've done a lot for me in my career. So I would give you as many hours on this podcast as you possibly need. But there was no hesitation when you reached out because that's just what my dad taught me.
JAG:
Well, and the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I've told this story before. I may have told it when I had you on the WJPC at fifty podcast when you were doing morning radio in Las Vegas. My wife and I were out there and we got lunch together. And like afterwards we were we're back in the hotel and she's like, Jeff is the nicest, most polished guy ever. Like, he was such a f so much fun having lunch with him. What a great guy. So everything you're saying about your dad, the apple clearly doesn't fall far from the tree.
Jeff:
Well, that's that's very sweet. And that story continues to make me smile. And I I just have to say, at the end of the day, JPZ, Syracuse, that little orange man behind you represents all of us and I would take any time for, you know, alumni, current students, recent grads, whatever it is, people who wanna go to Syracuse high schoolers, any minute to promote that place. 'Cause that that made us both.
JAG:
Absolutely. So let's get into the meat of this, what I wanted to talk to you about today. So the podcast, is this a great game or what? You and your dad are both busy. He's obviously on ESPN. He's d doing games all over the country. He's traveling. He's going between Maryland and Bristol and seeing his grandkids and all this. And then you in your morning radio career, you've been in Cleveland and Vegas and now Philadelphia. Tell me how the show came to be, like the genesis and the idea behind it.
Jeff:
Well, Jag, as two broadcasters, my dad and I, we we have been toying with doing something together for years, right? He's the baseball mind, I'm the radio podcast, pop culture mind, right? So he kinda looked at me and said, When when are we gonna make this happen? And if if if I may get personal for a minute, when I was fifteen years old, my grandmother moved in with us. I actually lived next door to my grandparents growing up. And she moved in with us, Alzheimer's and dementia. My grandfather had passed about, you know, eight years before that.
Jeff:
And they reached you know, she became my roommate, so to speak. She was in the bedroom right down the hall from me. And my dad and my uncle Matt took care of her for years. And so she passed away in twenty twenty, ninety six years old, lived a lived an amazing, amazing life. And shortly after that, dad was kind of saying, All right, I think I'm ready for the podcast, Jeff. Like I've all my energy is spent with my job with ESPN or taking care of your grandmother. Now I have that
JAG:
Right.
Jeff:
channel open. And then my uncle Matt got sick with ALS. And that changed everything for our family. And he became one of the primary caretakers for him. He lived two streets down from me when I was growing up. And then that took over, you know, two and a half years of his life. And after he passed away in 2023, notably, the podcast started in 2024.
Jeff:
And if I'm being honest, it was my dad's way of pushing down the grief and being able to put his mind on something else. But it really is a love letter to people who love baseball. My my uncle Matt was a you know, a Hall of Fame baseball player for his college, Catholic University, Division One. Incredible college baseball player, was an amazing coach of baseball for years and years and years, and just an all-around amazing guy.
Jeff:
And every time we do the podcast we think of Uncle Matt and we think of how much he would have loved seeing us do this show together. So that's really what it came about. And now we're into season three and we're having a lot of fun doing it.
JAG:
And a quick side note, you did mention your Uncle Matt. You've talked about him a lot on the podcast and ALS. And the charity event you did this past weekend was for a gentleman with ALS locally to you, right?
Jeff:
That's right. Michael Brown is a dad of three who was diagnosed with ALS, former college baseball catcher, former Secret Service member, got ALS way, way too young and he's fighting and there's never ever enough money that goes around in any research. But, you know, ALS when Lou Garrett got it a hundred years ago, we we didn't know anything about it. And now, quite frankly, we know a lot more, but we still aren't even close to figuring out how people get it and how to fix it.
JAG:
Right.
Jeff:
Incurable.
Jeff:
Most people live two to four years after diagnosis and it's devastating. It's devastating. But ultimately, we committed as a Kirkshin family to never ever stop helping people in the ALS community. So yeah, Jag, we did a complete fundraiser just for this one man and his family to raise some money. We raised ten thousand dollars at one event. It was very special. We auctioned off a game with Tim Kirkshin that you could sit and watch an entire game with Tim Kirkshin by your side and ask him a million questions.
JAG:
Amazing.
JAG:
wow.
Jeff:
We had signed jerseys, we had hats. It was it was a very good afternoon spent in good jest just talking baseball.
JAG:
Love it, which is what you do on the podcast. So you mentioned that this is year three. You started the podcast in 2024. Talk to me about how the podcast how, you know, he had to shift gears, your dad, from what he does in his day job, and you a little bit in your day job too. Talk about how the podcast came together and how you started to promote it and grow it in those early days.
Jeff:
You know, it's interesting. We thought I knew what I was doing when I first started on this show. Little did I know, I had no clue how this space works. I think it's like so many other things, Jag, like social media, for example, right? Like you could be a social media expert and then tomorrow the powers that be can change the algorithms and completely remake what we're at the whims of how the world changes. And it's almost impossible to be up to date, so to speak, because tomorrow everything could be different.
Jeff:
And everybody's mad when things change. Remember when Facebook Messenger became a thing? People were like, What? I would just want to post on people's walls. Why are you putting Messenger in here? And now nobody posts on people's walls. I don't even think I I mean I'm sure you can, but people just message each other on Facebook Messenger. The part is the point is things change quickly. When we started the show, we would do one episode a week, which featured a week's worth of baseball.
JAG:
You're right.
Jeff:
Playing every day.
Jeff:
Keep in mind there's 30 teams. You know, sometimes 15 games a day for seven days. And then we would feature an interview. It was like an hour and 15 minutes of podcasting. Now, granted, you had all week to get through it, but I quickly learned from people like yourself, hey, we need to have more occurrences of episodes, more ability to contact the show, more ability to reach the show through podcasting and through elements of the show. And that's when we went from
Jeff:
Two, and then we immediately went to three episodes a week. So we are Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday. Mondays being a content, which is all based on what's going on across the league with a couple of bits thrown in there, including the wheel of Kurkjian, where we spin a wheel and whatever it lands on. My dad and I have to riff off what's going on in the baseball world based upon that. And then Tuesdays is our interview.
Jeff:
And then Thursdays more content because we just realized there's always something going on in the game. We got to keep up with it. So that changed the three episodes a week, Jag. Really kind of that was in season two. Really changed everything for us. It really became a, hey, we even though we are a father-son show that talks about baseball, we are in it for a little bit of breaking for here's what's going on across the league. And I think that really balanced out our show.
JAG:
I think it's a great show for baseball fans. And a little confession here, as you know, I'm a big Red Sox fan. I listened to the show more as the Red Sox went on their playoff run last year. I be when the Red Sox were terrible in the first half of this year, I wasn't listening as much, but now that the Red Sox are on a run, I'm like, okay, they're probably gonna talk a little bit more about the Red Sox. And it is a terrific show. I listen all the time when I'm walking my dog in the morning. So I appreciate the content that you put out.
JAG:
So a lot of times clients are going to say to me, All right, I want to be the next daily from the New York Times. I want to be the next Joe Rogan. I want to make all this money podcasting. And I have to say, hey, stop. You have to build the use of baseball reference. If you build it, they will come. You have to spend time building the show and creating the show and marketing the show. tell me about the process of growing the show to a point where you could monetize it. And then probably about joining the network, which is a big thing I want to ask about today, too.
Jeff:
Right.
Jeff:
Yeah, Jag, you know, this is interesting. From day one of the podcast, I was big into video. Now, granted, I was not utilizing my video the way I needed to from day one, but every single episode
JAG:
You mean repurposing for meat for reels and stuff like that or?
Jeff:
Yeah. Like I wasn't doing it as much as I probably could and but I knew that video in the show needed to be on video. Yourself included, right? You told me that. You said, video if you can, throw up a camera. Let's make this happen. That's the advice I give to kids all the time when they want to start in the podcast industry. I say, Listen, there's no reason why you shouldn't have a podcast, first of all, right? You're not gonna make a million bucks, but anybody can have a podcast today. So if you're sitting saying
Jeff:
The biggest red flag I find with young people in the same Well, I've been thinking about starting a podcast. Do it. Just do it. Stop thinking about it. But anyway, I digress. I think for me, you know, the video aspect of things in the marketing angle, nobody, nobody stops and says, Hey, I found your podcast on Apple Podcasts. I've never had anybody say that to me.
JAG:
Yeah.
JAG:
Thank you, thank you. sing it from the heavens.
Jeff:
Right? I've never heard that. No one said I was scrolling through the top 50 sports podcasts and you were 47. Congratulations. I searched baseball and I scrolled through a bunch of thumbnails till I found Tim Kirk. No one's ever said that. But you know what people do say? you're reels. All I see is you on Facebook and Instagram and TikTok. I love your content. Now, granted, here's the hardest part, Jag. How do I get them to then listen to the commercials that'll get us paid? Right? That's the hardest part.
JAG:
Right.
Jeff:
But eventually it's like anything else. I'm redoing parts of my garage. I have storage that I love from this one company that I won't name because I want them to sponsor the podcast anyway. But I went on their website once. You know how many sponsored ads I've got from them? A billion, right? It's exhausting. But my point is, if they watch one video, you know what Instagram, Facebook, TikTok's gonna do? It's gonna show them another one later that day or maybe even the next day. And another one.
JAG:
Ha ha ha ha.
JAG:
yeah.
Jeff:
And another one. And eventually they're gonna go, maybe I should just like watch whatever this is. Like, let me see what this is. I like these reels. Can I get more of this? And then that's when it happens. But it takes repetitions. And so we are very, very consistent on posting. We try our very best to get great content up there, serial content, things that people want to come back for. It can be difficult. The hustle is hard. And with two kids, it's really hard. But nonetheless, that for me.
Jeff:
has been the biggest game changer. We have over, I think it's close to seventy thousand followers on Facebook, thirty plus on Instagram, TikTok's just over ten. So I mean right there, I always say a hundred and ten thousand people are interested in what we're doing. Yes. Do a hundred and ten thousand people listen to the podcast? No. But maybe we could change it. Maybe we could get another thousand people to come over and be a part of it. It just takes time.
JAG:
Are you comfortable, and if you're not comfortable answering I'll cut this, but are you comfortable sharing how what you're how you're how you're doing for downloads and views?
Jeff:
Yeah, I'm totally comfortable sharing that. Our podcast is really, really trying to emphasize YouTube. Now, we have a Hall of Fame baseball writer, my dad, on our show. So I want everybody to know that when one of my YouTube videos hits like, you know, two thousand views, I like freak out. I think it's the coolest thing ever. Right? Like everybody has something they can celebrate. We don't have a huge following. Got a little over five thousand subscribers. I'm proud of that. But listen, it's not a sprint, it's a marathon.
JAG:
that's the radio guy in you.
Jeff:
Every single time I look at the stats, I look at one number. And that's how long are people watching for? That's a big that's a big thing, right? Because anybody can click on it and that, you know, if you I don't know the numbers, but say it's if you watch three minutes, it's a view. I would much rather hear, okay, people ninety-six percent completion rate. That's really good. We may only have a thousand downloads or listens or views on a YouTube video, but I got ninety-eight percent of people that finished it.
JAG:
that's impressive. To me, I'd rather have a thousand people in the room listening to me than a hundred thousand people in the room and only one percent are actually hearing what I have to say. It's all about your niche, right? Like you don't need a million people to listen to your show. If you have a thousand and nine hundred and eighty-seven of them are actually paying attention and coming back for the next episode, that's more valuable than a million people popping in, you have your viral moment and never coming back.
JAG:
That is incredible. I
JAG:
I love that. That's I get that's the radio guy and you're talking about in radio terms, time spent listening. And then what you said a moment ago about the number of impressions, the number of reels people see. That's you know, there was an old formula, I'm sure you know it in radio, in music radio, where how many times, at least when radio is the primary discoverer of music, how many times you have to play a song before it gets familiar to your listeners, or how many times does a listener have to pro and hear a promo before you know your event, so or before they know about your event. So that is absolutely the translation there. So you talk about earlier the transition.
Jeff:
Right.
JAG:
from you know radio to podcasting and how it's different. You're there's some similarities in there too, and it sounds like you're really finding those.
Jeff:
Yeah, and the one big similarity at least that I've been taught, content is king. Have something to say. Jag, this is something you taught me from the very beginning, which is like, yes, you can be a baseball podcast, but what's the why here? Like what are why are people gonna listen to you instead of listening to the thousands, tens, hundreds of thousands of other baseball podcasts that are out there, right? What makes you different? And so my dad and I had that conversation and we said, you know what?
JAG:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff:
We're not a baseball podcast. We're a father and son podcast who talk about baseball. Our love of the game and each other is what roots us in our pod. And then baseball is how we share that love with each other. That's the beauty of it. We spend a lot of time talking about my kids, grandkids, all the stuff, you know, like that's cause that's our lives, you know? When my dad was up for my daughter's third birthday, he made the joke.
Jeff:
I couldn't tell if it was a birthday or somebody's wedding. We had tables being rented and tents up and stuff like that. And every once in a while I'll get a YouTube comment, somebody who's clearly just discovering the show for the first time. And they'll say something like, Man, they keep talking about themselves and not getting to baseball. And I take that as a compliment because clearly they don't know the show. And that's okay. Maybe I turn them off. Sure.
JAG:
Mm.
Jeff:
But I'm not in it to get clicks, right? I'm not in it for the clickbait. I'd rather have the nine hundred and eighty-seven out of a thousand listening than the nine out of a million listening. And the nine eighty-seven are the ones that we care about.
JAG:
That is
JAG:
Absolutely brilliant. I'm gonna probably that's probably gonna be one of my social media reels from this episode. Yeah, there we go. There we go. It and it is interesting because I think a lot of times I will counsel clients and say, listen, get to the meat of what you're talking about. Don't don't you know talk about the great new breakfast place down the street or whatever. But there's there's a line there. And knowing that that's the focus of your show is relationships. Like, congratulations on being a dad times two now, by the way, very recently. And I feel like you know, I've met your
Jeff:
Mark it here and cut. Good.
Jeff:
Thank you.
JAG:
Wife Emily, once or twice in Syracuse, but like I feel like I've I know her more personally from listening to the podcast. I feel like I know you and your dad and your kids and your sister and your mom. Like, because you're talking about the family. And I'll be completely honest for a second. I don't have the best relationship with my dad, but I love hearing about your relationship with your dad and your kids and him and his grandkids. And it's it's really fun because I think if the show were only about baseball, I'd probably
Jeff:
I I don't know if I I don't know if your ti your time spent listening would be as long because you have that it's very difficult, but I think you've struck a great balance. I think one of the recent episodes you did was with Jason Benetti who does the Tigers games here and my god, I was dying laughing the whole time and in what an hour you probably talked fifteen minutes of baseball, but it was terr I think because you said that in the show. And yeah. And it was one of my favorite episodes ever. I I sent him a note too, because I'm like, this you know
Jeff:
Maybe less.
JAG:
Some of my favorite episodes are these interviews where you're talking about all these wild off-the-wall stories. And then, by the way, we're gonna talk some baseball too. So I I love it.
Jeff:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Well, Jag, and listen, you said something really important there, which was, you know, that growing relationship with people. We had at this live event that I mentioned before, we had somebody come up and my wife and my daughter are working the yes, they're working the event because they're amazing people. She's running the raffle. And and he looks at him, his name's Dave and he goes, “Is this McKinley Hope?” That's what I call her, even though her name's just McKinley. Is this McKinley Hope? That's like kind of a family thing. We just do first and middle with McKinley Hope. I don't know
JAG:
Right.
Jeff:
I don't know why it I started it, but it's just I like the way it sounds. And it was just so special because he was like, I feel like I just know your family, I love your family. And the coolest part, Jack, and this is not to, you know, discuss you and your father's relationship, but the messages we get
Jeff:
about people talking about their own fathers, their relationships with the game, with their dads. Some people saying, I don't really talk to my dad much, but we both love the game of baseball. So I sent him your podcast. And it's given us a means of being in better communication. Right. One guy wrote in, I have a shallow relationship with my dad besides our love of the mariners. And now we talk about your podcast all the time. And it's allowed us to open up conversations about other things in our lives, right? And
JAG:
wow.
Jeff:
That's the greatest thing we've ever heard. I've been in tears reading some messages and the point is right, we're using the vehicle of baseball to allow people to be a little bit more vulnerable with themselves and their relationships with others. My dad and I are the same way.
JAG:
You can't get a bigger compliment than that, yeah.
JAG:
I that is absolutely brilliant because it would have been so easy. You've got the Hall of Fame baseball writer dad. We're just gonna talk baseball and he's gonna tell stories about Frank Robinson and Derek Jeter and David Ortiz all the way through, and it'd be fine. It would be a great show. But the fact that you have that added dimension, I think, is a credit to both of you that you know that that's the special sauce. That it's you it's like you said, it's baseball, but it's not a show about baseball.
Jeff:
Right. And Jag, I think it's so hard because in talking to any clients of yours or people who are thinking about starting a podcast, take a law firm, for example. Like even in my own little world, I've had friends and friends of friends who are like, hey, my boss wants to start a podcast about the lending industry and the housing market. And you're like, Okay, but like when do I need that?
JAG:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Right, me personally homeowner, I need it when I'm buying a house and that's pretty much it, or when I'm trying to maybe, you know, get a new loan for my home and pay down some points or whatever it might be. So, okay, is it an industry podcast? Okay, it's for the industry. That's great already, because there's tons of people, real estate agents, lending people, financial institutions, whatever it might be that wanna hear this podcast. But what's the other thing that you're gonna bring to it, right? Do you have an intern on who has no idea?
Jeff:
what the industry is about and you're almost teaching them as you're teaching everybody else. So dumb butts like me are like, yeah, I don't know either. I'm like intern Billy over there who doesn't know. Right. What is the difference, even if it's a small adjustment that you can bring to the table that makes your podcast in your niche a little bit different?
JAG:
I love that you said that because one of the areas that I work in is with financial advisors. And I did a podcast that published last week. They're actually just outside Philly. They're a couple of my best clients. I wouldn't work with them since I think twenty eighteen or twenty nineteen. And we did a podcast about estate planning, which on the surface put me to sleep. But when you if you listen to the podcast, there's a lot of banter, there's a lot of back and forth, there's a lot of making the material accessible but also personalizing a a little bit. Like, you know, even in this show it you
JAG:
Know they're financial advisors, but the running joke is I say, Hey, welcome to the show. And one of them says, Hey, great weather we're having, which is something I typically hate, but because it's become a running joke, fans of the podcast, listeners of the podcast, know okay, Alex is gonna make a comment about the weather and how it's gonna be sweater weather soon and all that, and it's become part of the show. So having that special sauce, when I tell new podcast clients, think about the morning radio show you grew up listening to. Think about how you feel like you knew those people personally because they were on the bus with.
JAG:
You where they were in the car with you. Knowing them personally is much more than just, hey, you know, this is the podcast. I'll give you a perfect example. So the Daily for the New York Times, their longtime host Michael Barbaro, they did an episode about antidepressants. And it was about you know RFK Jr. trying to get people off antidepressants and anti-anxiety medicine. And Michael, toward the end of the show, after the long interview of the pros and the cons and all that, he said, you know what? After having this conversation, I think about why I'm on my Lexapro and I think I'm gonna probably stay on it, but that's my personal decision. And it was like, wow, okay. This famous podcast host has issues with anxiety and he's on a drug for it. And I feel like I know him a little bit better now. So having that personal aspect is so huge.
Jeff:
You know, one thing, Jag, that I don't know if I coin this myself. I don't think I remember anybody telling me this in college, but I always would say, for the most part, we're only expert on one thing, and that's ourselves. Our own experiences, our own knowledge. Unless you're a doctor, right? Unless you're you have a PhD within reason.
JAG:
Mm.
Jeff:
We are experts on one thing ourselves. So why not share the things you have? Now, in your case, Jag, and I mean this respectfully, you are a podcasting expert, but that's also part of yourself, right? You are a podcaster by trade and name, right? So I'm an expert on one thing, and that's myself. So you can't delegitimize my experiences. And I've learned this a lot in parenting, and this comes back to podcasting, I promise. Is like
Jeff:
My neighbor down the street has a completely different attitude on how to parent their children than I do. I have a little bit of a different attitude on how to parent our children than my wife does. But doesn't mean anybody else is doing it wrong. But they are experts on one thing and that's their own experiences. They grew up with different parents than I did, right? And same with podcasting. When it comes to Michael Babaro, right?
Jeff:
He's not telling you everybody should stay on antidepressants because I am. He's saying no, I'm an expert of my own experiences. I've just lived through this podcast like you have, and here's what I'm feeling for myself. Has nothing to do with telling you, hey.
Jeff:
I'm the attorney general or I'm the you know, I'm telling you what to do. Surgeon general, that's what it is. I'm the surgeon general and I'm telling you what to do. No. He's just working in his own experiences. And that's so important to remember. In radio too, you're an expert on one thing, your experiences. Give your opinion. But also people need to recognize that's just me. That's just how I feel about it. It's okay to feel differently. Absolutely.
JAG:
Tell me about the Foul Territory Network and how you and your dad came to join that network and what that process is as far as revenue and not necessarily numbers, but just the whole process and how it works.
Jeff:
Well, signing the one hundred and seventy-four million dollar deal was a little game changing for us. Right. Now jokes aside, you know, Jag, it was kind of a for me, it kind of went a couple different ways. I felt as if being a part of a network that can help elevate, you know, each other would be really good.
JAG:
That's what a average for average for a third baseman these days, right?
Jeff:
You know, we are unlike any other show that they have in their network. They have so many great podcasts. They have the Foul Territory podcast to start with. That's the name brand. That's the big brand that they have. They do an incredible job, right? But they're not like us. And and we're not like them, and that's on purpose. They have a whole bunch of brands just specific to different teams, right? Definitely not like us, right? That's for the Pittsburgh Pirate fan, right? That's for the Red Sox fan to listen to that show and get in depth on
Jeff:
you know, the seventh bullpen guy that's back there and they're talking about, you know, whether or not he should be sent back down. Like we're not talking about the nobody on your teams. Go to them for that. But I always felt like if we are part of a network where myself or my dad or whoever can promote our show and say, Hey, we're a little different. This is different. Come to us and come hear what we have to say.
Jeff:
All is made better. They have an incredible team of full-time staff and interns that help us with video production, producing, live shows, social media clipping and all of that stuff. And you'll see, I still do a lot of my social media videos because I just love doing it and there's certain turnarounds I like to get done quicker than they can. Nothing against them. They got like forty-five brands to worry about and not enough interns.
JAG:
As a small business owner I can relate to that that sentiment. Yes, yeah, yeah.
Jeff:
Right, right. So I'm like, if I can crank this out, I just recorded an hour ago. If I can crank it out in five minutes, twelve hours before the episode's supposed to go live, why wouldn't I do that? Right. So, but they do a great job of helping me out with what I had mentioned before, which is the number one way our podcast is discovered. Think about this, Jack. Tell me, I I find this to be true, and I want your expertise. And you please feel free to disagree. I hear about podcasts two ways.
JAG:
Okay.
Jeff:
Well, okay, I'll say three ways. First way is somebody else telling me about a podcast. Honestly, that's the most I hear about it. I just sat down with a coworker and she said, I'm trying to get back into true crime. I love true crime podcasts, by the way. Like, it's probably it's like the daily, dead serious, couple baseball shows, and true crime. Anywhere I can get it, right? She said, Send me a bunch of wrecks. I sent her six messages.
Jeff:
With just the links to the Apple Podcast. Boom, right there. Okay, number two, social media. I didn't know X, Y, or Z had a podcast. I didn't realize that was in a podcast format. Boom. Number three, that cross promote within a podcast. You know, the end of a hey, you like this, and I bet you like this story. Here's five minutes of it or whatever. Or even just a quick tease in a commercial break. Always gets me because I'm already there. Right? All I have to do is hit a button and I'm on a new podcast in two seconds, right?
JAG:
That's the fish where the fish are, like you talked about earlier, getting these people to make the jump from a social media real to listening on Apple, Spotify, or YouTube. But if you're f already advertising there, and you already got your podcast player open, whichever app that is, you know, it you're already there. That's one less hoop for your potential listener or reviewer to jump through.
Jeff:
Right. And to talk monetization, which I know you mentioned, and I'm not avoiding that aspect of it, I definitely have loved having a sales experienced people behind our brand, people who know our brand, people who know what we're into.
Jeff:
People who know what our show's about. I mean, the amount of times I had to click boxes to make sure that certain things were not playing over our podcasting, right? We we're not a big gambling thing. We're a family show, right? We don't need that. We don't want alcohol brands on ours, you know. We don't need that either. 'Cause I mean, listen, sure, there's a lot of money in sports gambling right now. I didn't know if you realize that, Jag, but you know, to us
JAG:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff:
There's an appropriate time for it. And there's a way to go about it. I'm not saying we'll never do it. There is a way to go about it, and there's partnerships that had to be had to keep the podcast afloat, sure. But like ultimately, I we're not gonna have somebody come in and be like, It's the best bet with Tim and Jeff Kirkshin. Here is the four lines that are tricky this week that you need to check out. my gosh. Pardon my parlay. No, thank you. So I think that, you know, ultimately.
JAG:
Here's your parlay for Red Sox Yankees this weekend. Yeah, g yeah.
Jeff:
Having a team that's behind that. We did a deal earlier this season with Game Changer. Now, keep in mind, Jag, I've been in touch with Game Changer, the organization that does all of the streaming for all of these youth sports. It's an incredible organization. They got bought out by Dick Sporting Goods years ago. I've been in touch with them since before the podcast launched officially. An old friend of mine from Cleveland, Ohio, who used to work for the Cavaliers, worked for Game Changer, saw the announcement and said, we want a partner.
JAG:
Wow.
Jeff:
We didn't get a real deal, big deal done, besides events, live events, where they, you know, paid our show to come out and promote them and do a show sponsored by them until 2026. And I've been in touch with them since March of 2024. So think about that. So and this is again, I say, Hall of Famer, Tim Kirkshin, right? And it took us two years to get a deal on paper and
Jeff:
With a client. That's nothing against Game Changer. That's saying these things take time. And they had the big, big sponsorship on our opening day episode and a couple others and a named segment every single week on the show. It just took us two years to get there. And boy do I hate sales. So I was so impatient for two years waiting for that to happen. But people who sell understand that these things take time and that relationship took time. And thankfully Make Plays Media and Foul Territory Network were able to help make that deal.
Jeff:
cross the finish line and do the dirty deets and the impressions and all that stuff that I didn't have to worry about making good on.
JAG:
I l I agree with what you said about word of mouth. I call it new school word of mouth and old school word of mouth for how you find a podcast? It's somebody telling you about a podcast, somebody that you know, or somebody posting about it, or somebody posting reels. And then also I think sometimes the YouTube algorithm as well, but and then the cross promotion of podcasts is huge, and you've got that with other shows within the network too. so
JAG:
You know, for a while you're kind of a two-man operation, or you know, it with you doing all the behind the scenes stuff because your dad's traveling so much for work and everything and everything. And by the way, you have a day job and now two young kids. So y you know, I s I appreciate what you're saying, but having that sales team, having somebody else handle that, but that sometimes you're still doing some of the video, sometimes they're doing it. You know, a colleague of mine, Matt Cundal, once said that you should spend as much time working on promotion as you are in recording and editing and production. And when he said that, I my heart kind of sank. I'm like, that's a big bite off the app.
Jeff:
Apple right there. But what would you say to somebody who doesn't have a network or a team helping them and they get overwhelmed by production, recording, editing, trying to find sponsors, cutting up the reels? It's it's not for the fainted heart, but what advice would you give to somebody who isn't able to hire a staff or work on it, work with a staff?
Jeff:
That's a great question, Jag. I think what I would say to people, because and you're right, you know, we do have some team members helping us out. Nobody dedicated directly to us, so I still right after this I'm editing tomorrow's episode and putting it up because it's still my little baby and I still need to take care of it.
Jeff:
so I'm with you. And I've I've lived that grind and I lived the pressure too of making sure everything would clear my my dad. You know, of course if he says it on the podcast, he should be comfortable with it going at a reel, but it's all about context, right? If you cut out
Jeff:
The important context that he provides, and people are blowing us up on Instagram saying, my gosh, Tim Kirchner thinks X, Y, and Z is not a Hall of Famer. Well, it was not yet, or going to be, or needs another season, whatever it might be. So you have to be very careful. It's a form of journalism that we have to hone in, and I know a lot of colleges and universities, also Syracuse included, is trying to kind of hone in on that aspect of short form journalism and being able to tell a story in shorter form in a vertical video standpoint. But to
JAG:
Right, right, right.
Jeff:
That person, Jag, I would say, would you be interested in this? And that's what I started t saying to myself. If you cut that clip, put it save it to your camera roll, open it up, and hit play. And if it's not grabbing you immediately, try to go fix it. I'd rather you do one great video every three days than two videos a day that are just blah.
JAG:
Mm.
JAG:
Yeah.
Jeff:
Take the hook, add it to the front, add a quick effect, add a title on it, flash it, come back, and then tell me what's going on, right? Like, that's the big difference. And Jag, you're a perfect example of this. You change your social media. I can't remember how long it is now, but but you know, you grab me every time. I'm scrolling and it says, Apple Podcasts decides that your podcast isn't good enough. I'll tell you how to cut through here. And then
JAG:
Thank you.
Jeff:
Quick intro and I'm like, all right, I'm here. I'm right here. I'm listening. As opposed to, hey, it's Jeff Kirkshin. Thanks so much for joining me. That might work in a podcast format for your subscribers because they know who you are, even though we should be grabbing people at the front of a podcast always. But not on social media. Nobody knows who you are. They don't care about your name yet. Make them care about your name by making great content.
JAG:
Stop the scroll. Gotta get him stop the scroll.
Jeff:
Yeah, stop the scroll.
JAG:
there was something else I was gonna ask you when it slipped my mind. I had a thought and then it was gone. So you mentioned you so you mentioned clipping reels and all the things like that. I know you're recording on Riverside, which is the platform we're on right now, I c I believe. Tell me about some of the tools that you use in creating the podcast from A to Z.
Jeff:
Don't worry.
Jeff:
So Riverside was a suggestion of Jag and I cannot recommend it more. I mean the AI tools were so so great. they're very responsive when it comes to any technical issues, which by the way are bound to happen. They happen. If you've listened to this podcast before, I'm sure Jag's told you his Ryan Seacrest story. It happens. Things I mean, Jag, our live event, video and audio, not great. I have a lot of work ahead of me because that's our episode we're editing and putting on the feed, but
JAG:
Mm-hmm.
Jeff:
I'm gonna open it up with me and my face and clear quality and say, listen, we did a live event, we threw a camera up there, the audio's not perfect, but listen, we wanted to take you there. So enjoy, right? And that's it. Listen, it it was a charity event anyway. and to the point of your clients and those people, take the pressure off yourself. Me two years ago, I would be beating my head that the camera wasn't close enough to get our faces in clear picture perfect.
JAG:
Yeah. That's very human.
Jeff:
4K like we are right now on Riverside, right? I would be mad that the audio didn't come out as clean as I wanted. But you know what? What am I gonna do about it now? I'm gonna fix it, make it look as good and sound as good as I possibly can. Don't lose your head over it. There's always another episode that's waiting for you. So I used Riverside for years. However, when we joined the Foul Territory Network, we started using E Cam. Pros and cons of both, okay? So in my opinion, pros of Ecamm, you can make anything.
Jeff:
And it's run like a live show. So there's a lot of prep that goes into it. But once you're in it, you're done. Hey, I want to go to a graphic. Boom, I go to the graphic. Ooh, I want to go to this, I go to that. Also, I for a while really didn't love the fact that with Ecamm, I was gonna have to live edit, right? Cut to dad, cut to me, cut to the two shot, cut to the graphic, cut to a video, whatever. I didn't like that. But then I actually really loved it.
Jeff:
Because here's a great example. I helped my dad fact check live during the show. And every once in a while I'd have to note, okay, here's Jeff over here trying to check something, and I'm on camera totally looking like I'm not paying attention. Now I can just cut away from myself, get what I need to get done, take my notes, my editing notes. Riverside's AI tools are unmatched, in my opinion. being able to cut a reel, they give you reels that you should be doing. hey, here's a hundred percent.
Jeff:
We think this is great. Little editing here and there makes it perfect. And then you download it and you have it on your socials the next minute. Any new podcaster should be using Riverside. It's expensive for a reason. I don't want to say it's expensive. It costs money for a reason. There's plenty of free services out there, but the expense is worth it because it'll take that headache out. And if you're not crazy about exactly every shot looks, you hit the AI tool for the speaker, it creates your episode.
JAG:
Yeah.
Jeff:
You can edit via the text, which I love. So I would just type in if I knew dad you know said Jackie Robinson's, you know, whatever, whatever stat wrong, and then he corrected himself. I type in Robinson, it takes me to that timecode. I delete it. I can see where he messed up. cut it out, done. Great. With Ecamm, I really love it. I got I've had this for years. It's a stream deck. So I love these tools. They aren't necessarily cheap either, but they're worth it if you're doing any sort of live cutting during a show.
Jeff:
You can install anything you want on that, edit, do whatever instead of using your keyboard. I type keyboards into my notes or I keyboard in my notes pad so I can go back and edit afterwards. It's pretty seamless, I won't lie.
JAG:
So once you have the show edited recorded in Ecamm, w how are you editing it?
Jeff:
I put it into Adobe Premiere and I'm one of the few well, I shouldn't say that. Cause a lot of the true crime podcasts I listen to are set up this way, but all of the other shows in the Foul Territory Network, nobody does this. And I don't hear sports shows do it a lot. I do a hard out, you know, you listen to the show, right? I plan when I want the pot when the commercials to come up, right? When I'm editing or when I'm live, I write commercial, eight minutes, forty seconds, because I felt a good natural break.
Jeff:
I put a baseball bat sounder and then we go to a commercial, right? And I don't know if that's good practice. It's just something that felt right to me. If we're gonna go to a commercial, I don't want it to be like, and you know, we say goodbye today, you know, to Willie Mays. Make sure to check out the Baba. It just bothered me. It allowed me to be safe from whatever commercial's gonna come next, right? Which I don't know because of, you know, the ad insertion, which is way above my pay grade.
JAG:
Yep.
Jeff:
So I pull it into Premiere. I have a template up there that already has my commercial breaks roughly where they're gonna go because of the last week's episode or yesterday's episode. And then I just pull it in, I do a quick audio fix, edit clip in Adobe Audition via Premiere, opens it up in audition, clean up the audio, and then I just start cutting and I read off my notes and I delete each edit from my notes when I do it. And then I put the commercial breaks in, export it, throw it up on YouTube.
Jeff:
Then do the same, take that same video feed, bring it into audition, so the final video, put it into audition, make it an audio file of its sorts, and then we put it into our Omni, which is the service we use to do it on all of our podcast feeds.
JAG:
That that's your host, okay. All right. anything that you think is worth mentioning I have not asked you about.
Jeff:
No, I mean if there's if there's one more thing I could say to people starting podcasts is remember, this is supposed to be fun. You know, at the end of the day, right? Like it's supposed to be a good time. And you should you should bring in an expert like Jag in order to help you cut through so people can enjoy the fun with you. But it's supposed to be a good time. I mean I I did a weekend syndicated show, Jag, and was really hoping it this was on the radio. Was really hoping that it would
JAG:
Yes.
Jeff:
take off and advertisers would jump on it and I was on six radio stations on the weekends and I I took a lot of pride in it and eventually I had to say to myself, the hardest decision I made, the time that I'm putting in is not worth what I'm getting out of it. Everybody has that moment. But I did that show for two and a half years, right? This was not two and a half months. What's the word that how many podcasts have one episode? How many podcasts have two episodes and then they're in the ether and gone? You gotta give it more time than that. That's for sure.
JAG:
Mm.
JAG:
Yeah.
JAG:
Yeah, I think it's it you know, it if you gotta make sure the juice is worth a squeeze. And if it if it's not revenue, it might be a brand awareness. It might be just you really enjoy doing it. But I think I really appreciate you pulling back the curtain today, Jeff, 'cause yeah, you have a leg up on most podcasters because you've got name recognition in the market.
JAG:
You've got name recognition in the markets that you work in and obviously your dad's got name recognition from, you know, all those years as baseball writer, S I E S P N and everywhere else. So, but you hearing that hearing that it wasn't a home run for you right out of the gate and that you had to put the work in, despite having, you know, the I guess the head start a little bit from from name recognition, especially with your dad, is I think really important for podcasters to hear. And I just I really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule today.
Jeff:
Thank you so much, Jag, for having me. I honestly, I try to talk to my wife about the industry of the podcast. She has no interest in hearing about Adobe Premiere or Riverside or Ecamm, and really just ends up being ears for me instead of a call and response. So to talk the inside of podcasting, it tickles me. I love it. Thank you so much for having me. Seriously. Thanks, Jag.
JAG:
All right, Jeff, take care.